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April 13, 2012

Bro. Jose Ventilation vs. Jesse Romero


(PLEASE WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO. not just the cross examination scenes or just some parts in the debate. WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO. so you may judge who the winner is.)


Last January 2012, a debate happened in Fox Theater Visalia, California between the Iglesia ni Cristo, represented by Bro. Jose Ventilation and Catholic Church, represented by Mr. Jesse Romero. It was organized by LUMEN CHRISTI, a men's bible study group in California. The topic was "Which is the True Church".

Let us watch the presentation of both parties, after watching the whole video, you judge, for you who is the real winner?



REVIEWS FROM THE CROSS-EXAMINATIONS:

First part
Bro. Ventilation asked Mr. Romero the official name of the Catholic Church, then he said that the official name was "One holy catholic apostolic roman church". Bro. Ventilation added, "Do you find that name in the bible?" Mr. Romero admitted that the official name of the Catholic Church was nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.

But a Catholic defender in the Philippines who is named "Mr. Talibong" used an adulterated bible in a debate with a minister in the church, saying on his Confraternity Bible it is said on Matt. 16:18, instead of Christ will build his church, it is said that Christ build the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church which we all now a deception, because no bible version/translation here on earth we can ever find that name in the bible! Know why?

Because:
In 1870, at the Vatican Council, the name ‘Roman Catholic Church’ was proposed, but it was rejected. The bishops assembled unanimously decided upon this official name: ‘The Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church’” Discourses on the Apsotle’s Creed, Rev. Clement Crock, p. 191

Bro. Ventilation asked Mr. Romero if we can find the term "Catholic" in the bible, what he said is that there is the "idea" found in the Scriptures. Well, in reality we really cannot find that term in the bible because:

“’Catholic’ is the ancient name by which the Church of Christ has been known for nineteen centuries, this name was given to her not for reasons of controversy, to prove something, but because it identifies her uniquely. It was first used by St. Ignatius, bishop of Antioch in Syria, who was martyred about A.D 110. The Church founded by Christ is here, for the first time, called ‘the Catholic Church’, a name clearly to denote the Church throughout the world in union with the see or diocese of Rome. It was stress the unity of the universal Church that St. Ignatius invented the name. Roman Catholic, Rev. Edward Taylor, p.3

It was only invented by St. Ignatius in 110 A.D. Bro. Ventilation on another topic asked Mr. Romero who presided the council if it is Peter or James, he answered James presided. He claims that James gave his opinion and not decision, while Bro. Ventilation said that James gave the decision.

On the other hand, in the cross-examination of Mr. Romero to Bro. Ventilation, he asked how can somebody be saved prior to 1914. Bro. Ventilation quoted Romans 2:12-15 that says:

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) "

It was long but the time is short so Bro. Ventilation couldnt answer the question completely as Mr. Romero interrupted him saying he didnt still answer the question. On the cross examinations, we can notice how easy to Mr. Romero interrupt Bro. Ventilation when he is answering or asking because he is a native american, who is fluent in english while Bro. Ventilation cant do that because he is not so much "fluent" in the language.



Second part
Bro. Ventilation raised the topic again about who presided the council, but then Mr. Romero changed what he was said earlier as he agreed it is James who presided, what he answered now is that ALL APOSTLES PRESIDED. Bro. Ventilation challenged him where can he find that Peter said "This is my judgment or opinion" but what Mr. Romero showed was Acts 15:7:

"And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. "

He insisted that Peter said "BY MY MOUTH" which he translates it is Peter who made the decision but Bro. Ventilation said that it is different from "judgment". Quoting Acts 15:19 but let us add 15:13 for the evidence that it is James who made the decision:

"And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Brethren, hearken unto me:..." "...Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;"

In the other hand, Mr. Romero asked Bro. Ventilation if there is a book in the New Testament the letters to the Philippines can we find it, Bro. Ventilation said that the word Philippines did not exist until 1850's, so how can that happen?

Mr. Romero asked, where can we find in the bible that Felix and his successors are given the key of Kingdom by Christ. Bro. Ventilation answered, by prophecy, he quoted a verse that says:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:" 2 Peter 1:19

It is prophesied that in the "far east i will bring my offspring" and "in the future there will be one flock" so in this church we have a sure word of prophecy. But Mr. Romero said "You did not answer the question", an ignorance to the answer that what was been given. He asked "Where in the bible can we found Felix and his successors? I want the names, chapters and verses i dont want to hear oh its prophecy... blah..blah.." By asking that kind of question, Bro. Ventilation called it a "silly question" as the bible was already written hundred of years ago yet he is asking for names many years after the bible was written.



Last part
Bro. Ventilation asked Mr. Romero the name of the church that was mention in Romans 16:16, if it is "churches of Christ" or "Catholic Church", he answered it was a descriptive word for the church. Bro. Ventilation further ask, If the "churches of Christ" is descriptive of the church, then the church was described as the church of Christ,right? Mr. Romero answered Yes. He added "therefore, you could not find in book of Romans the word Catholic Church is implied to the church in Rome". Bro. Ventilation asked, "How many foundation stone in the Catholic Church?" Mr. Romero gave his answer but he didnt answered the question directly as to how many.

Well, what was based on the bible is this:

"For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation, and no other foundation can be laid." I Cor. 3:11

Catholic Church's doctrine says that Peter is the foundation of the church. If that's the case then it clearly contradicts the bible as
God already placed Christ as the ONLY ONE foundation. It also means that they deny Christ as the foundation if they will acknowledge Peter as the foundation of the church! as what the bible says:

"BUT ALSO [in those days] there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines (destructive heresies), even denying and disowning the Master Who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction." II peter 2:1

In the other hand, Mr. Romero asked Bro. Ventilation this: "Did Jesus gave the key to Peter?", he answered yes, but he is not made the POPE, Christ said do not call any man your FATHER:

"And do not call anyone [in the church] on earth father, for you have one Father, Who is in heaven." Matt. 23:9

The Catholics violated this as they call their priests and popes FATHER. Mr. Romero asked Bro. Ventilation that why did abraham and others in the bible are called Father, he answered that the Fatherhood there was about the race, what Christ mentioned is about the Spiritual Father and the priests and Pope was their Spiritual Fathers.

The bible says:

"For even if you had ten thousand others to teach you about Christ, you have only one spiritual father. For I became your father in Christ Jesus when I preached the Good News to you." I Cor. 4:15

Bro. Ventilation further added the verse in Hebrews as there's no problem with that calling abraham as father and so on:
"In case of our human fathers, they punished us and we respected them. How much more then, should we submit to our Spiritual Father and live!" Hebrews 12:9

In fairness to both parties, they did well in the debate, Mr. Romero is a good sport he even gave Mr. Ventilation a standing ovation when his name is called, that is why you can see in the video that some catholics and INC members gave Mr. Romero claps as what he just did to Bro. Ventilation.

In my observation, i think Mr. Romero is better than Karl Keating, besides being good in arguments he was such a sport not like Karl Keating who even made an article about his exaggerated "experiences" in their debate with the same Bro. Ventilation.

4 comments:

  1. I'm hoping for more nice debates like this :-)
    Advance Happy 100th Anniversary to all brethen!

    ReplyDelete
  2. sorri po talagang talo kau sa katoliko eh kalian ba kau nanalo puro pa kau pandaraya....

    ReplyDelete
  3. I watched the video and it told me a complete different story. Jesse Romero won the debate.

    ReplyDelete

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